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Episode 155

Ep. 155: Positive thinking and how it impacts performance/Michelle Bond; Unlocking the Power of Fascia: Why It's Essential for Athletes

In this episode:

At the commencement speech for Dartmouth College's graduates in June of this year, Roger Federer spoke eloquently on the power of positive thinking and how it enabled him to win close to 80% of his matches over the course of his career despite having lost almost half of the points that he played in those matches. Can athletes in other sports learn from his example and is there evidence to support this notion that being positive can affect outcomes? We discuss in the Medical Mailbag. Also, a conversation with Michelle Bond, a kinesiologist and researcher on the importance of understanding the fascia and how as athletes we can leverage that understanding to improve our performance and recovery.

Segments:

[08:36]- Medical Mailbag:

[38:00]- Interview: Michele Bond

Links

Roger Federer's commencement speech

Michele's Facebook page

@michele__bond on Instagram

Michele's Website

Michele on YouTube

Transcript
Speaker A:

Now, you cannot separate muscle and fascia, but the idea is to perform certain movements with certain load in a certain way to address just the fascia, because it truly helps muscle.

Speaker A:

It's not muscle that's necessarily stretching, it's the fascial component.

Speaker A:

And when it's conditioned, it helps with force transmission.

Jeff Sankoff:

,:

Jeff Sankoff:

I'm your host, Jeff Sankoff, the Tri doc, an emergency physician, triathlon coach, and multiple Ironman finisher coming to you as always from beautiful, sunny Denver, Colorado.

Jeff Sankoff:

Since the last episode of this program published, we have seen in a very short time the women's Ironman world championship raced in Nice, France, and most recently the latest of the t 100 events that was held in Ibiza, Spain.

Jeff Sankoff:

Now, both of those events bear discussion, as does some other interesting stories that have taken place in our multi sport world.

Jeff Sankoff:

However, what I really want to talk about in the few minutes that I have before I launch into the substance of this program is the other major event that took place in Europe on Sunday.

Jeff Sankoff:

Because I believe, not just as an avid fan of cycling, but as a student of sports history as well, that it was the UCI mens road race for the world championship that arguably will be the thing that will have the most significant impact on this and on generations to come.

Jeff Sankoff:

Now, if you've been under a rock for the last few days and have not heard about the incredible 100 kilometer attack of 26 year old slovenian rider Tade Pugatcha, including a heretofore unheard of 50 1 km solo ride at the front to victory, then I urge you, go read about it.

Jeff Sankoff:

Or better yet, find a video on YouTube and you can watch it.

Jeff Sankoff:

But even if you somehow missed it, I know many of you will already be well versed in his incredible rise.

Jeff Sankoff:

But lets take a step back just for a second in order to truly appreciate the brilliance of what this guy has done to this point.

Jeff Sankoff:

Because quite frankly, we are witnessing something really, really special.

Jeff Sankoff:

Tadi Pugachas story isnt just about winning, its also about how he wins, the sheer audacity and dominance he brings to the sport.

Jeff Sankoff:

His:

Jeff Sankoff:

That iconic stage 20 time trial on laden la planche des belle filles wasnt just a coup.

Jeff Sankoff:

It was a seismic moment in cycling.

Jeff Sankoff:

Think about it.

Jeff Sankoff:

Heres this young, relatively unknown rider in his second grand Tour event ever, flipping the entire race on its head, taking the yellow jersey from Primus Roglic in one of the most dramatic finishes in Tour history.

Jeff Sankoff:

And it wasnt just that he won, its how he destroyed the rest of the field and expectations.

Jeff Sankoff:

On that day.

Jeff Sankoff:

He didnt just inch Roglic out by a handful of seconds.

Jeff Sankoff:

He blew the competition away.

Jeff Sankoff:

It was the kind of performance that transcends the sport and enters into cycling folklore.

Jeff Sankoff:

And if you thought that:

Jeff Sankoff:

In:

Jeff Sankoff:

His ride was nothing short of a masterclass that year, especially his brutal attacks in the mountains.

Jeff Sankoff:

But what makes Pugacha truly remarkable is his versatility.

Jeff Sankoff:

Its not uncommon to see dominant climbers, strong time trialists or fast sprinters, but to see someone excel in all of those aspects, thats really rare.

Jeff Sankoff:

Pugacha is the ultimate all rounder.

Jeff Sankoff:

He can dance up the steepest mountains with the best of the climbers, grind out power in time trials like a specialist, and still punch hard in classic style races.

Jeff Sankoff:

Hes won the Tour de France again this past year in 24 in unbelievable style with out competition.

Jeff Sankoff:

Hes won some of the monuments like Liege, Bastogne Liege, the Tour of Flanders and more.

Jeff Sankoff:

not forget his victory at the:

Jeff Sankoff:

Beyond his versatility, its his racing mentality that stands out.

Jeff Sankoff:

Pugacha doesnt ride defensively or play it safe.

Jeff Sankoff:

Like so many GC contenders, he races to win from the front, launching attacks that others would hesitate to make.

Jeff Sankoff:

Rider who creates opportunities, not one who waits for them to come.

Jeff Sankoff:

His audacious style has reignited the passion for aggressive racing at the highest level.

Jeff Sankoff:

And crucially, he races with an instinct that's almost impossible to coach.

Jeff Sankoff:

He reads the race perfectly, knows exactly when to make his move, and when he goes, there's little anyone can do to stop him.

Jeff Sankoff:

For fans like me, it's this blend of tactical brilliance, physical dominance and fearless racing that has made a pugacha a rider.

Jeff Sankoff:

I can't take my eyes off.

Jeff Sankoff:

And on top of it, his demeanor of youthful exuberance and joy, of good sportsmanship when he doesn't win, and even better sportsmanship than he does, he brings an old school flair to a sport that's increasingly dominated by numbers, wattage and marginal gains.

Jeff Sankoff:

And there's something refreshing about a rider who races on instinct and guts, even as he rides with the legs of a generational talent.

Jeff Sankoff:

With that little tuft of hair sticking out from his helmet.

Jeff Sankoff:

In many ways, Pugacha is a throwback to the legends of cycling, riders who could win any race on any terrain.

Jeff Sankoff:

But with the cutting edge conditioning and preparation of modern sport, we saw that amplified this past weekend when he became the first rider in almost 40 years to win cycling's triple crown, the Giro d'Italia, the Tour de France, and the world championships, all in one season.

Jeff Sankoff:

And the scary part?

Jeff Sankoff:

He's still only in his mid twenties.

Jeff Sankoff:

The dominance we've seen so far could just be the beginning.

Jeff Sankoff:

So whether you're a hardcore fan of the sport or a newcomer, it's impossible to ignore what Tadi Pugacha is doing.

Jeff Sankoff:

He's not just winning races, he's redefining what's possible in modern cycling.

Jeff Sankoff:

We're lucky to witness his career in real time.

Jeff Sankoff:

In most circumstances, no one really knows when they are in the presence of a mozart or a Picasso until long after they are gone.

Jeff Sankoff:

If you are still not following the sport of cycling, I urge you to do so and bear witness to a talent of that kind of caliber while you still can and sit back and just Marvel and enjoy.

Jeff Sankoff:

On the show today, Juliet Hockman and I are going to discuss a popular reel thats been making the rounds on social media for a little while now.

Jeff Sankoff:

Its a video of the commencement speech that was given by Roger Federer at Dartmouth College a couple of years ago, and in it he speaks rather eloquently on the power of positive thinking to affect performance in sport.

Jeff Sankoff:

On the medical mailbag, we will look at the science that supports this idea and discuss how we use it as athletes and as coaches to get the best from ourselves and from those who we coach.

Jeff Sankoff:

That's coming up in just a couple of minutes.

Jeff Sankoff:

Later, I'm joined by kinesiologist Michel Bond.

Jeff Sankoff:

Michel has done a lot of research into how to help athletes by leveraging an understanding of how to improve fascial connections.

Jeff Sankoff:

We are going to discuss what the fascia is, why it's important, and how you can use what she has learned to improve your own injury resilience and recovery.

Jeff Sankoff:

And that's going to be coming up in just a short while.

Jeff Sankoff:

Before all of that, I want to take a moment to thank again all of my Patreon supporters of this podcast who have decided that for about the price of a cup of coffee per month, they could sign up to support this program and in doing so, get access to bonus interviews and other segments that come out about every month or so.

Jeff Sankoff:

The next of those bonus episodes will be released next week and will feature a detailed medical segment on some new research that shows how much efficiency in cycling is unaffected by aging.

Jeff Sankoff:

This is a surprising finding and has some important implications for all of us as we train and race into our older age groups.

Jeff Sankoff:

That bonus episode and others like it are available on a private feed for all of my subscribers.

Jeff Sankoff:

Plus, for north american subscribers who sign up at the ten dollar per month level of support, they receive a special thank you gift in the form of a Boco Tridoc podcast running hat.

Jeff Sankoff:

So visit my Patreon site today@patreon.com tridoc podcast and become a supporter so that you too can get access to these bonus episodes.

Jeff Sankoff:

And maybe the cool gift as well.

Jeff Sankoff:

And as always, thanks so much in advance just for considering.

Juliet Hockman:

It'S time again for the medical mailbag, which means I'm joined by my friend and colleague, Juliette Hockman.

Juliet Hockman:

Juliet is traveling.

Juliet Hockman:

You're in Washington, DC, right?

Michel Bond:

I am.

Michel Bond:

I'm here in DC visiting my family.

Michel Bond:

Yes.

Juliet Hockman:

So from one Washington to the other.

Michel Bond:

And that's right, last time we were about to be.

Michel Bond:

That's right.

Michel Bond:

Just a week ago I was in Washington state with you.

Juliet Hockman:

Yeah, exactly.

Juliet Hockman:

Before we get to the subject at hand, I do want to do some housekeeping.

Juliet Hockman:

iscussing the location of the:

Juliet Hockman:

I was quite adamant, having visited New Zealand previously, my brother, having lived in New Zealand, that the location for this year's world championships is Taupo, New Zealand.

Juliet Hockman:

She had said it was taup, new Zealand.

Juliet Hockman:

I had never heard it said that way, and I was quite sure assured of myself.

Juliet Hockman:

I'm never.

Juliet Hockman:

Yeah, exactly.

Juliet Hockman:

Longtime listener friend of both of our, Stephanie van Beber reached out to me and said that she too, thought it might be Topah.

Juliet Hockman:

And she said every once in a while I might be wrong.

Juliet Hockman:

And I said, no, not possible.

Juliet Hockman:

But I decided to reach out to an expert.

Juliet Hockman:

So here, have a listen.

Juliet Hockman:

This is my conversation with New Zealand resident and Akiwi, who's actually also in Washington, DC right now.

Juliet Hockman:

Nikki Sweetbrunna.

Juliet Hockman:

Nikki, how do you pronounce the name of the city or town where the 70.3 world championships are going to be held this december in New Zealand?

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

So you are both right.

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

The correct pronunciation is topaw.

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

And while I might not think I have an accent, apparently I do.

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

The best way to explain how to pronounce it is to say to, as in toe on your feet.

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

And paw, as in paw of a cat.

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

So if you can say taup, you're pretty much fang on how the local mori pronounce it.

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

Some of us, like myself and my family, we call it Taupo.

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

But no one is going to greet you either way you say it.

Juliet Hockman:

So when I was there, I never heard Taup.

Juliet Hockman:

That was something brand new to me when Fiona mentioned it during our interview.

Juliet Hockman:

And in all of the years that I've been referring to the places I visited in New Zealand, I would always say Taupo is Taupo how you and other people in New Zealand will refer to it.

Juliet Hockman:

And is that considered an affront?

Juliet Hockman:

Do the Maori get or it's not okay?

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

Absolutely not.

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

So whether you want to call it Taupo, which I call it Taupo, or you want to call it taup, every way you feel most comfortable is absolutely fine.

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

There are a lot of place names within New Zealand where you can say them both way.

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

And I think probably over the last few years, a lot more people are getting more comfortable pronouncing it probably the correct way.

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

But as I say, no one is going to look at you twice.

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

And probably the majority of people still call it helper.

Juliet Hockman:

So there you have it.

Juliet Hockman:

We're both right.

Juliet Hockman:

But I definitely owe Fiona an apology.

Juliet Hockman:

I'm going to apologize again, Fiona.

Juliet Hockman:

I'm so sorry.

Juliet Hockman:

But also, I'm going to send her an email to make sure that she hears.

Juliet Hockman:

And if I was overly strident in my belief in how it should be said, we have a really interesting subject today.

Juliet Hockman:

The subject of the medical mailbag is a Instagram reel that I saw, actually.

Juliet Hockman:

It's funny because I saw it after pretty much everybody else did.

Juliet Hockman:

And I sent it to you at the time, and I thought, wow, what a great subject for a medical mailbag.

Juliet Hockman:

And you agreed that you said you'd seen it.

Juliet Hockman:

And that Instagram reel is probably something everybody who is listening to this has seen.

Juliet Hockman:

It was the video of Roger Federer giving the commencement speech at Dartmouth.

Juliet Hockman:

Was it:

Juliet Hockman:

Do you remember what year it was?

Michel Bond:

I think it was more recently than that because we knew some people in that class.

Michel Bond:

So I want to say it was:

Juliet Hockman:

Okay.

Juliet Hockman:

It was within the last couple of years, Roger Federer was giving the commencement address, and he spoke just really beautifully about the power of positive thinking in its ability to influence performance in sport, but also in how it can be adapted to play a role in your everyday life and in your ability to succeed.

Juliet Hockman:

And I'm not going to play the whole thing here, but I do want to play what I think is a really important segment and what really got us talking.

Juliet Hockman:

So have a listen to it here.

Roger Federer:

In tennis, perfection is impossible.

Roger Federer:

In the:

Roger Federer:

Now, I have a question for you.

Roger Federer:

What percentage of points do you think I won in those matches?

Roger Federer:

Only 54%.

Roger Federer:

In other words, even top ranked tennis players win barely more than half of the points they play.

Roger Federer:

When you lose every second point on average, you learn not to dwell on every shot.

Roger Federer:

You teach yourself to think, okay, I double faulted.

Roger Federer:

It's only a point.

Roger Federer:

Okay, I came to the net and I got past again.

Roger Federer:

It's only a point.

Roger Federer:

Even a great shot, an overhead backhand smash that ends up on ESPN's top ten playlist, that, too, is just a point.

Roger Federer:

So here's why I'm telling you this.

Roger Federer:

When you're playing a point, it has to be the most important thing in the world.

Roger Federer:

And it is.

Roger Federer:

But when it's behind you, it's behind you.

Roger Federer:

This mindset is really crucial because it frees you to fully commit to the next point and the next point after that with intensity, clarity and focus.

Roger Federer:

The truth is, whatever game you play in life, sometimes you're going to lose a point, a match, a season, a job.

Roger Federer:

It's a rollercoaster with many ups and downs.

Roger Federer:

And it's natural when you're down, to doubt yourself and to feel sorry for yourself.

Roger Federer:

And by the way, your opponents have self doubt, too.

Roger Federer:

Don't ever forget that.

Roger Federer:

But negative energy is wasted energy.

Juliet Hockman:

So that's really the crux of it.

Juliet Hockman:

This idea, I've always.

Juliet Hockman:

When I first heard him speak and he talked about this notion that he only won 54% of his points.

Michel Bond:

I know.

Michel Bond:

Isn't that incredible?

Juliet Hockman:

Just blew me away.

Juliet Hockman:

And this idea that the difference between the top players and the players who aren't at the top is just their whole mental attitude, their ability to just play every point like it's the most important point of their career.

Juliet Hockman:

But the second it's overdeveloped, you have to move on.

Juliet Hockman:

You have to be able to dispense with failure and move on with positive thinking to the next point, no matter what just happened right now.

Juliet Hockman:

He referenced this idea that there was a study, and I couldn't find it.

Juliet Hockman:

Neither could Cosette Rhodes, who was the intern who worked on this segment.

Juliet Hockman:

We were unable to find a study that he was referencing.

Juliet Hockman:

And there's another gentleman who is on Instagram who also famously quotes the study, and he actually talks about how he did the study.

Juliet Hockman:

He's a psychologist, he's a public speaker, he does a lot of work with athletes.

Juliet Hockman:

And he talks about this study in South Florida on professional tennis players in the top 25.

Juliet Hockman:

We cannot find a study, and that doesn't mean it wasn't done, just means it wasn't published in the peer reviewed literature.

Juliet Hockman:

It also just means I can't comment on it.

Juliet Hockman:

But I find myself questioning, at least with tennis players, how much positive thinking can really influence that.

Juliet Hockman:

If tennis player like Roger Federer is only going to win 54% of his points in order to win, have a career like he did, what about the bad boys like John McEnroe?

Juliet Hockman:

What about Jimmy Connors?

Juliet Hockman:

Those guys were notorious for freaking out after losing points.

Juliet Hockman:

They did it, I think, not so much because they had a bad attitude, but because they were probably trying to influence the guy on the other side of the court, I'm guessing.

Speaker A:

But hang on.

Michel Bond:

I think that the power of what Federer was saying in the study that he or the so called study that he was referencing wasn't so much the outward behavior that was demonstrated after a poor point or after losing a point.

Michel Bond:

It was the internal ability to absolutely leave it behind and move on to the next point as the most important point in the game.

Michel Bond:

So if you lost a point, instead of dwelling on it and oh my gosh, I suck, I'm a bad player, I should have gotten that one.

Michel Bond:

I failed.

Michel Bond:

It's more, give me the next one.

Michel Bond:

I'm powerful, I'm strong, I'm smart, I'm a great player, I'm going to kill the next one.

Michel Bond:

And I think that and whether or not you agree with sort of McEnroe's poor behavior on the courts, he may have been doing that internally.

Michel Bond:

In fact, he probably was.

Juliet Hockman:

Well, I 100% think there's something to what he's saying.

Juliet Hockman:

I guess what I'm pushing back with a little bit is that.

Juliet Hockman:

I'll give you an example.

Juliet Hockman:

I found some evidence.

Juliet Hockman:

I did find one study on tennis players, and this study on tennis players said that mental techniques and positive thinking actually had an impact on the ability of players to get their first serve in.

Juliet Hockman:

So when you gave players a sort of, you gave them coaching for positive thinking and they implemented that positive thinking, their first serve percentage went up.

Juliet Hockman:

And I thought that was really interesting.

Juliet Hockman:

What else can get your first serve percentage up is lowering the serve velocity.

Juliet Hockman:

If somebody hits the ball less hard, they can get their first serve percentage 100%, but they're going to get blown out.

Juliet Hockman:

Right.

Juliet Hockman:

They're going to lose every point.

Juliet Hockman:

So great.

Juliet Hockman:

They're very positive.

Juliet Hockman:

They're going to get a great serve percentage, but that doesn't necessarily translate to winning all the points.

Juliet Hockman:

There is definitely the fact that Federer, sure, he's positive mindset.

Juliet Hockman:

He's able to deal with his failure, move to the next point, but he's still, still, that he's still Roger Federer.

Juliet Hockman:

I think that there's probably more to the fact that he's Roger Federer and that the mindset aspect of it maybe took him to that other level.

Juliet Hockman:

I think that his message, though, going away from tennis player, his message of being able to look at failure as something not to beat yourself down on, but rather to grow from and to learn from and also this idea to just leave it behind you and immediately move on to the next thing in a positive mindset.

Juliet Hockman:

That to me is something that we can all learn from, not just in sport, but in life.

Michel Bond:

No, 100%.

Michel Bond:

And it's interesting.

Michel Bond:

You and I just came off this wonderful weekend where we had, we raced ourselves and we also had 22 of our athletes there.

Michel Bond:

And one of the things that I will often counsel athletes on before a big race, particularly if it's their a race and particularly if they're new to racing with lots and lots of people, and it's a much bigger show.

Michel Bond:

If you go to an Ironman race, for example, or a challenge race, it's a much bigger show than a local race is that something will go wrong.

Michel Bond:

Right.

Michel Bond:

It's almost inevitable that in such a complex day as a triathlon, to be a long course triathlon, something will go wrong.

Michel Bond:

And my advice is identify what the problem is, fix the problem and move on.

Michel Bond:

It's not going to ruin your day.

Michel Bond:

It's not going to.

Michel Bond:

Don't dwell on the problem, don't worry about it.

Michel Bond:

Don't keep repeating the problem.

Michel Bond:

Just move on.

Michel Bond:

Move completely on from it and to whatever the next thing is, task is that you have to do.

Michel Bond:

And because it's so easy to get derailed mentally and emotionally, particularly if you're newer to the sport, right.

Michel Bond:

You think, oh, there goes the whole day and I'm terrible.

Michel Bond:

And you just go down the rabbit hole.

Michel Bond:

The ability to recover when all of these hiccups happen, which they happen multiple times over a race.

Michel Bond:

And we see that with the professionals, too, in our sport.

Michel Bond:

Professionals for athletes as well.

Juliet Hockman:

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Juliet Hockman:

I think as a coach, one of the things that I try to imbue my athletes with is that kind of adaptability and that kind of attitude of, you know, I've said it on this podcast many times, focus on the things you can control.

Juliet Hockman:

Be prepared for all the different eventualities that can come up.

Juliet Hockman:

And if they do come up, then you're ready to go.

Juliet Hockman:

You've got your plan, and it's not as much of a surprise or a stress, but then also whatever it is, a flat tire is the most common thing, right?

Juliet Hockman:

You get a flat on the bike, fine.

Juliet Hockman:

You just deal with that problem, you fix it, and then you forget about it.

Juliet Hockman:

Because the most common mistake I think athletes make is they think about all the time they lost.

Juliet Hockman:

Oh, they exaggerate the time.

Juliet Hockman:

They think, oh, it took me 20 minutes to fix that flat when in reality, it was maybe five.

Juliet Hockman:

And then they go out on the bike and they blow themselves up trying to make up that 20 minutes time.

Juliet Hockman:

And I made that mistake as a newer athlete and recognized.

Juliet Hockman:

And so the next time I got a flat, I was like, no, that's time lost.

Juliet Hockman:

I can't make up for it.

Juliet Hockman:

I need to continue executing the plan that I was on and just that I can't do anything about what's in the past, but I can control how I react and how I move forward.

Juliet Hockman:

And that's a good example of how I had a failure, because something came up and I didn't respond well to it, and I blew myself up and didn't have a good race.

Juliet Hockman:

And so I.

Juliet Hockman:

Instead of taking that failure as a sign that, oh, I'm terrible and I can't do this sport, instead, I looked back at it, and I really took something from it.

Juliet Hockman:

I speak of adam all the time.

Juliet Hockman:

I'm sorry.

Juliet Hockman:

Constantly bringing him up, but I tell adam, after every single race, there's always something you can find in every single race that you could have done better.

Juliet Hockman:

No matter if it's your pr race, no matter what it is, there's always something.

Juliet Hockman:

Find something in the race that you think that you could have done better from.

Juliet Hockman:

Don't dwell in it, but learn from it.

Juliet Hockman:

And then look for.

Juliet Hockman:

And then in a race where you don't think it went, it's not your favorite race, there's always something positive you can find.

Juliet Hockman:

So I tell them, find the positive thing, dwell on that, find the negative thing, learn from that, and move forward.

Juliet Hockman:

And I try to tell my athletes all the same kinds of things.

Juliet Hockman:

I found some evidence to show that this positive thinking actually works, and I think it's worth discussing just briefly.

Juliet Hockman:

One of the studies comes out of iranian taekwondo athletes, which is an interesting subset of athletes.

Juliet Hockman:

Unfortunately, its a very small study, but the findings were pretty interesting.

Juliet Hockman:

And basically, the takeaways from this study was pretty simple.

Juliet Hockman:

It was that of many different traits that they looked at trying to imbue these athletes with optimism was the only one significantly associated with vo two peak and heart rate max.

Juliet Hockman:

They could actually see vo two peak go up and heart rate max go up, and social skills and control were correlated with relative peak power.

Juliet Hockman:

So if you improved athletes ability to have good social lives, and let's face it, triathletes are very social people and being able to control their circumstances.

Juliet Hockman:

So focusing on the things you can control, like I just said.

Juliet Hockman:

So now, very small study, only ten athletes in the study.

Juliet Hockman:

So it's hard to really know what to take out of it.

Juliet Hockman:

But I think it's a really interesting finding that again, as you and I have both talked about, your mental outlook as you go into competition, as you go into training is so important.

Juliet Hockman:

I've talked about my own experiences.

Juliet Hockman:

You've talked about yours.

Juliet Hockman:

Tell us about what one of the sort of big things you took away.

Juliet Hockman:

I know you've talked a lot about your experience as a rower and the importance of the boathouse.

Juliet Hockman:

What are some of the things that the boathouse gave you for being able to cope with setbacks and being able to focus on positivity?

Michel Bond:

The thing that we've said several times already is just understand what you can control and what you can't control, and the things you can control.

Michel Bond:

Work on those elements the very best you can.

Michel Bond:

So that when you go into, whether it's a rowing race or a triathlon, you feel that you are as best possible prepared as you can be for that day, for that event, on that day, right.

Michel Bond:

And what I tell my athletes, and I constantly tell myself, and we've talked about this as well, is you want to be standing in that swim shoe, really believing in your heart of hearts that you've done everything you possibly could to get there right, to be there healthy, and to be there fast and fit and everything else, given whatever life was throwing at you in the preceding six months.

Michel Bond:

And then you want to get to the finish line believing that you did absolutely everything you could in the previous whatever it is, four and a half, five and a half, six and a half hours to execute the very best race you could, given the circumstances that the day gave you.

Michel Bond:

And I think we can both talk about our experiences.

Michel Bond:

Last Sunday, you came burning by me with 1 mile to know on that run and I knew you were giving it everything you could so that you could feel really satisfied as you came across the finish line.

Michel Bond:

You were as far up that podium as you could be.

Michel Bond:

Similar to me.

Michel Bond:

I had a very similar experience, and we both made mistakes during the race.

Michel Bond:

My mistake, I actually took a wrong turn on the ride.

Michel Bond:

I was riding completely by myself.

Michel Bond:

There wasn't anybody around me.

Michel Bond:

Incredibly lonely out there.

Michel Bond:

I lost on space, and I turned right when I should have gone straight.

Michel Bond:

And so for about 10 seconds, I'm like, wow, juliette, that was a ridiculously stupid thing to do.

Michel Bond:

Wake up.

Michel Bond:

Come on.

Michel Bond:

I think I even yelled at myself.

Nikki Sweetbrunna:

Come on, get with me.

Michel Bond:

Got myself back on course, let myself ride hard for about the time I'd lost, which is probably 20 seconds, and then settled back in and finished the race.

Michel Bond:

It's having the confidence that things will go wrong, and you can handle them when they go wrong.

Michel Bond:

And solving the problem when you're in it and just not letting it rock.

Juliet Hockman:

Your day, that's one of the things I've.

Juliet Hockman:

That's one of the things I've learned from you, that.

Juliet Hockman:

That idea of making sure when you show up on the start that you feel satisfied that you did everything you could have.

Juliet Hockman:

And that was something that, for a long time, I would show up on start lines just.

Juliet Hockman:

And I don't do that anymore now.

Juliet Hockman:

I don't miss workouts.

Juliet Hockman:

If I miss a workout, it's because, like, I did this week or where I have Covid and I just physically was unable to do a workout.

Juliet Hockman:

But otherwise, I will do what I have to make sure that I get my workouts in and without impact.

Juliet Hockman:

I do what I need to make sure.

Juliet Hockman:

When I say that, I want to be clear.

Juliet Hockman:

I'm not saying I'm going to do my workouts at the expense of any.

Juliet Hockman:

Everything else.

Juliet Hockman:

What I'm doing is I am making sure that I accommodate for the fact that I have a workout, and I know it's important to me, and I'm going to get it done around all my other responsibilities.

Juliet Hockman:

And that was something that was really impactful the first time you said that to me, and it added to the mental strategies that I have.

Juliet Hockman:

I want to always show up at a race, and I want to always be standing there in the start confident that I did everything I could.

Michel Bond:

I was going to say, let's be really clear here.

Michel Bond:

That doesn't mean your preparation is perfect.

Michel Bond:

I mean, going into the race last weekend, because of injuries, my run was completely undercooked.

Michel Bond:

But it was the best I could do, given what I was working with at the time.

Michel Bond:

You know, maybe once in our life, we all get to put together a race where our preparation is perfect as well as executing all the pieces.

Michel Bond:

But ren, talking about just given the circumstances that you're.

Michel Bond:

Given, that you did everything you possibly could.

Michel Bond:

So.

Juliet Hockman:

And your reference to my, like, going as hard as I could in the last mile is, again, from learning from failures.

Juliet Hockman:

I have called you from races where I was passed in the last 500 meters and ended up losing a podium spot by less than a second.

Juliet Hockman:

And I have learned the hard way that I just do not want to ever have that happen because I didn't give everything in the last little bit.

Juliet Hockman:

That's how I approach all my races unless I have the information that I have a big gap or anything like that, which I did not have in this case.

Juliet Hockman:

And, yeah, so there's some other stuff here that I think is worthwhile reviewing.

Juliet Hockman:

We found a study that talked about effects of psychological and psychosocial interventions on sport performance.

Juliet Hockman:

This is a meta analysis of 35 different papers looking at psychological and psychosocial interventions and whether or not they actually were impactful on athletes and their performance.

Juliet Hockman:

And basically it found that there really is a very strong correlation, not clear causation, but a very strong correlation showing a positive effect.

Juliet Hockman:

When you have these kinds of interventions, when you get athletes, when you give athletes tools to be positive, to have means of dealing with failures, we're calling them failures, but maybe not setbacks.

Juliet Hockman:

Setbacks.

Juliet Hockman:

Thank you.

Juliet Hockman:

Then they do better overall.

Juliet Hockman:

But what I found most interesting in this study, the most interesting finding, was who it was that was the most effective provider of those interventions.

Juliet Hockman:

It wasn't practitioners like sports psychologists.

Juliet Hockman:

It wasn't researchers, it wasn't the individuals or equipment managers.

Juliet Hockman:

It was coaches.

Juliet Hockman:

Coaches like you and me.

Juliet Hockman:

It was when the coaches who provided the athletes with the strategies, the athletes really took them in most efficiently, most effectively, and actually had the best success, which I thought was pretty darn fascinating, and goes again to reinforce the importance of having a coach, of having a coach who believes in you and who is going to teach you how to do all of these different mental skills of things like visualization, things like rehearsals, things like.

Juliet Hockman:

We talked, when I spoke to Daya Grant, we talked about getting into flow state and clutch state, and how you can practice those kinds of things in your training.

Juliet Hockman:

These are all skills that coaches can provide you with and that Juliette provides her athletes with.

Juliet Hockman:

And I work with my athletes on in order to try and give our athletes the best chances of success.

Michel Bond:

I feel like we, a few minutes ago, moved away a little bit from the topic of conversation that we want this discussion to pursue in that what the center talk was really talking about was even in the face of losing points, in the face of these many failures that take place throughout the tennis match, of returning to that positive internal voice, that the next point will be better, that I am a good athlete, that I'm a good tennis player, that I can win this, that I'm better than my opponent, whatever.

Michel Bond:

And I think that those very visceral voices, if you will, that have to exist in an athlete's head.

Michel Bond:

They come from the athlete.

Michel Bond:

Yes.

Michel Bond:

They can also come from a coach.

Michel Bond:

Absolutely.

Michel Bond:

I think you and I both had the experience through our athletic career where we see a workout or we, our coach tells us what they expect our race performance is going to be, and we're like, I can't push those watts, or I can't run that fast, or whatever there is.

Michel Bond:

And then, of course, we do.

Michel Bond:

And that, of course, belief comes from the coach and the coach basically holding us up to a standard that we didn't know we could attain.

Michel Bond:

And by having someone else tell us, we begin to believe it.

Michel Bond:

And I know that I've certainly told athletes, yes, you can do a 70.3, and they'll say, no, I can't.

Michel Bond:

I've only ever done a sprint, and I said, no, in six months you can do a 70.3, let's sign up for one, or whatever it is, putting that out there saying, yes, I believe you, athlete can do what's.

Michel Bond:

And then they begin to believe it, and they believe it more and more.

Michel Bond:

Right?

Michel Bond:

So there is the belief that comes from externally, where a coach's voice is saying, yes, you can do this goal, whatever it is.

Michel Bond:

But I think that the bulk of this really does have to come from the athlete.

Michel Bond:

And I do think it is, maybe part of it is internally learned, but I also think it is a learned skill on how to push yourself along when things don't go right.

Michel Bond:

We've talked about this before on this podcast about having that kind of mental toolkit of, this is what I'm going to say to myself when my goggles get knocked off, or when I'm way off the pack, or when I'm under shooting my power, or when my run paces off, or when someone comes find me who I know is in my age group, this is what I'm going to say to myself.

Michel Bond:

And being able to rummage around in that bag of tricks and come out with.

Michel Bond:

I have all kinds of things that I say to myself that are raised and some of them are worse.

Michel Bond:

To say them outside of racist situation are ridiculous.

Michel Bond:

Right?

Michel Bond:

They sound absurd.

Michel Bond:

And I remember learning this as a young rower, as a young Olympian.

Michel Bond:

I would say things to myself that, again, were absurd within the context.

Michel Bond:

But in the moment you believe them and it inspires you and it moves you along and it takes you to the next level and it has you continuing to believe that, get out of my way.

Michel Bond:

I'm coming for you.

Michel Bond:

Get out of my way.

Juliet Hockman:

Yeah.

Michel Bond:

And that, I think, is what.

Michel Bond:

And maybe whether you're competing for a podium spot or not, maybe you're just.

Michel Bond:

You just need to keep going on the run.

Michel Bond:

It might be a slightly different voice, but it is.

Michel Bond:

I am powerful, I am strong, I am kicking ass.

Michel Bond:

I am feeding these hills for breakfast.

Michel Bond:

I am whatever it is.

Michel Bond:

But athletes have to practice that and have to have that.

Michel Bond:

It doesn't just happen.

Juliet Hockman:

Right?

Juliet Hockman:

And I think we're saying the same thing.

Juliet Hockman:

I think all I was saying was that in some cases, I know for myself, I've developed some of these things by myself.

Juliet Hockman:

Some of the mantras I have came from me, but a lot of it has come from external places.

Juliet Hockman:

Some of it has come from coaches.

Juliet Hockman:

Some of it has come from my, my friends who, like yourself and Benny and Kelly, who are such phenomenal successes, who I learn from by hearing what you tell yourself.

Juliet Hockman:

And I start doing that, I start picking up those habits.

Juliet Hockman:

Hanging around with other people who are amazing athletes really rubs off.

Juliet Hockman:

So I think that and having a coach who has succeeded and has done well, I think also is really helpful if you want to succeed, because then you can learn from what they've done.

Juliet Hockman:

And it doesn't mean that you have to want to be a world champion.

Juliet Hockman:

It doesn't mean that you have to want to get on the podium, but you could still benefit from learning how to incorporate some of those skills because it will help you achieve whatever your goals are.

Juliet Hockman:

And I guess that's all I was saying, because exactly like you're saying, you have to practice them.

Juliet Hockman:

You have to practice positive thinking in your everyday life.

Juliet Hockman:

You have to practice it.

Juliet Hockman:

Finding those failures, those little micro failures that happen and learning to see them as opportunities.

Juliet Hockman:

And every time you see it as an opportunity, as a way to grow and get better, you've succeeded.

Juliet Hockman:

And you're just going to make yourself propel along that pathway towards the goal that you have.

Michel Bond:

You know, there's another wonderful story, another wonderful penetrated story that I learned.

Michel Bond:

So Serena Williams, I don't know if she's still coached or exactly what time period she was coached by this french guy named Patrick.

Michel Bond:

His last name is unusual, so I don't remember it, but his name was Patrick.

Michel Bond:

He was a french guy.

Michel Bond:

And I guess there was one Wimbledon, and Serena was playing incredibly badly and every time she came to net, she lost the point.

Michel Bond:

And so she's getting extremely frustrated.

Michel Bond:

And between matches, her coach in this, if you can imagine this, with sort of a french accent and the whole thing she said, he said, serena, I'm watching you play, and every time you come to met, I just sit back in my chair and relaxed and I know you're going to win the point.

Michel Bond:

And Serena looks at him and says, really?

Michel Bond:

I thought I was blowing it.

Michel Bond:

Every time I came to net, I thought I was losing all the points to net.

Michel Bond:

I'm so frustrated.

Michel Bond:

He goes, no, every time you come to net, the percentages are unbelievable.

Michel Bond:

You're winning the huge number of points where you come to net.

Michel Bond:

Of course, next game, next match, Serena goes out.

Michel Bond:

She comes to net more often.

Michel Bond:

She's killing it pretty much all the time she comes to net, she's winning the point.

Michel Bond:

And it was just, again, that sort of affirmation even.

Michel Bond:

Oh, and then the interviewer says to this guy, this coach Patrick.

Michel Bond:

So you lied to her.

Michel Bond:

And of course, you have to imagine this french guy going, was it a lie?

Michel Bond:

I don't know.

Michel Bond:

It's a wonderful interview.

Michel Bond:

But again, it was, this guy told her he believed in her and she was a great tennis player and she's a good net player.

Michel Bond:

And the next game she went out and believed it herself.

Michel Bond:

Did a phenomenal job.

Michel Bond:

So again, whether it's an external voice or there's an internal voice, there's a lot of power in believing in your own strength and power and confidence and everything else.

Juliet Hockman:

Yeah, that's a great anecdote.

Juliet Hockman:

I want to leave it there because I think starting with tennis, ending with tennis, it's a good little bow to put on it.

Juliet Hockman:

This has been another great topic of conversation.

Juliet Hockman:

We have listener submitted questions coming up on the next couple of medical mailbags.

Juliet Hockman:

But if you have a question that you would like to have us answer on the medical mailback, I hope that you'll send it in to us.

Juliet Hockman:

You can email me at tri docloud.com, or you can join the private Facebook group for this podcast.

Juliet Hockman:

You can search for Tridoc podcast on that platform, answer the three easy questions.

Juliet Hockman:

I will grant you.

Juliet Hockman:

Admittance and you could submit your questions there or just join the conversation.

Juliet Hockman:

What did you think about this segment?

Juliet Hockman:

What do you think about the show in general?

Juliet Hockman:

All of those things are fair game in that private group.

Juliet Hockman:

Juliette, thanks so much for joining me.

Juliet Hockman:

Enjoy the rest of your vacation and we will chat again on the next medical mailbag in a couple of weeks.

Michel Bond:

Thank you Jeff.

Michel Bond:

Looking forward to it.

Juliet Hockman:

My guest on the podcast today is Michelle Bond.

Juliet Hockman:

as been serving clients since:

Juliet Hockman:

She holds a master's degree in kinesiology from the University of Texas with advanced coursework in sports psychology and cardiovascular disease.

Juliet Hockman:

She's a published researcher in the area of strength and connective tissue and is a fascia Research society author and contributor.

Juliet Hockman:

Michelle is a NASM that I believe is the north american sports medicine.

Juliet Hockman:

Is that correct, Michelle?

Speaker A:

National association of Sports Medicine.

Juliet Hockman:

I was so close.

Juliet Hockman:

Certified Corrective Academy certified corrective exercise specialist and holds a level two fascia specialist certification from the international team of researchers.

Juliet Hockman:

She uses her proprietary movement assessment and corrective exercise system to program exercise for people who are truly looking to connect, ha, no pun intended, with how their body works and stick to a lifetime of healthy movement.

Juliet Hockman:

It's my pleasure to introduce Bond, Michelle Bond as my guest today.

Juliet Hockman:

Michelle, thanks so much for being here on the Tri Dog podcast.

Speaker A:

Thank you so much.

Speaker A:

I really appreciate this opportunity you gave me.

Speaker A:

Thank you for that wonderful introduction.

Juliet Hockman:

I want to begin first just with this whole notion of fascia.

Juliet Hockman:

I think that a lot of my listeners will probably be familiar with the concept or the word, but they probably don't really know what it means.

Juliet Hockman:

So help my listeners understand what fascia is and why they should care.

Speaker A:

That is great idea, because out in the mainstream arena there are some great definitions and some are very less weighted, let's say, and I will just say this to your listeners, you're going to be on the upside of knowledge here.

Speaker A:

In fact, there's a nomenclature committee right now, meaning we are continuing to develop the definition of fascia in real time.

Speaker A:

So what does that mean for all of us?

Speaker A:

It means that some disciplines include some structures because they're anatomists and surgeons, and other people include other definitions or philosophies because they are movement practitioners or hands on practitioners.

Speaker A:

So for us today, we're going to include things like ligaments, tendons.

Speaker A:

It's this unified web.

Speaker A:

I guess I should say tensional system that I'll describe later that surrounds and penetrates every single thing.

Speaker A:

So that's nerves, vessels, bone, muscle, your organs, everything.

Speaker A:

And so the idea is we're going to include those structures again, the definition, you'll see if you read research or listen to different practitioners, there are different definitions based on the kind of practice they are involved in.

Speaker A:

So for us, as movement people or people enjoying exercise and sport, we have to include this.

Speaker A:

This whole idea of, even though ligaments and tendons have a different definition to some people, we are going to include that because that is a part of the system.

Speaker A:

So, again, it's this ubiquitous system, this tensional net through the entire body.

Juliet Hockman:

Yeah, I think of it as a connective tissue that kind of binds all the stuff together.

Juliet Hockman:

That kind of holds everything within the organism from just being otherwise a gelatinous mess.

Juliet Hockman:

Is that kind of a way of thinking about it?

Speaker A:

Yes, and that's a great point, because there's two main layers, the superficial layer, which is becoming all the rage now, but we're not going to deal with that right now.

Speaker A:

We're dealing with the deeper layer.

Speaker A:

So there's.

Speaker A:

Within the deeper layer, there's this layer that's right under the superficial layer and some fat layers that is like this elastic, as they.

Speaker A:

The researchers call it, the elastic bodysuit.

Speaker A:

So it is connecting us from head to toe with this connection.

Speaker A:

Not just connection for movement, like movement and force transmission.

Speaker A:

Okay?

Speaker A:

But under that suit, then you have the layers of fascia that are invested in the muscle and other structures.

Speaker A:

So the deeper layer, to me, as a movement professional, is divided into sort of two different layers in that deeper layer.

Speaker A:

So we can talk about that suit and then what's going on with the muscle and bone.

Juliet Hockman:

All right?

Juliet Hockman:

So, as athletes, why do we need to know about this?

Juliet Hockman:

Why do we need to even bother?

Juliet Hockman:

Why is it important?

Speaker A:

Oh, this is my favorite part.

Speaker A:

To start, I did a presentation about the embryology of fascia.

Speaker A:

So it's truly muscle's partner.

Speaker A:

And as athletes and recreational enthusiasts, we think about muscle and how our bones are maybe.

Speaker A:

But this fascial concept truly is muscles partner within, let's say, five or six days in your mother's womb.

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker A:

We're going all the way back there.

Speaker A:

There's this spewing of fine web, and that is the beginning of the fascia system.

Speaker A:

And guess what?

Speaker A:

The muscle tissue grows into that layer or that direction.

Speaker A:

So what I say to people is, if it's that important, then it's got to be that important here in our bodies as adults or young adults out there in the world doing exercise.

Speaker A:

So it truly is muscles partner, and it's.

Speaker A:

And conditioning it separately is very important.

Speaker A:

Now, you cannot separate muscle and fascia, but the idea is to perform certain movements with certain load in a certain way to address just the fascia, because it truly helps muscle.

Speaker A:

It's not muscle that's necessarily stretching.

Speaker A:

It's the fascial component.

Speaker A:

And when it's conditioned, it helps with force transmission.

Speaker A:

So let's say you're a runner, you're swimming, you're biking, your triathlon, and let's say, in your thigh muscle, the actual spindles of muscle fiber do not reach from one joint to the other.

Speaker A:

What's helping is that fascial net, that communication within the muscle.

Speaker A:

So it's truly helping force production.

Speaker A:

That's why I think it's so important.

Juliet Hockman:

Okay, so you talked about how we have to condition the fascia as much as we are conditioning the muscle.

Juliet Hockman:

What can somebody do in order to do that?

Speaker A:

The thing is, like I said, you can't separate the two tissues.

Speaker A:

You just cannot.

Speaker A:

But it's the load or the type of movement.

Speaker A:

So, for example, something that fascia responds to.

Speaker A:

I call it different categories of movement.

Speaker A:

So we have maybe slow, deep foam rolling for hydration.

Speaker A:

We think of.

Speaker A:

There's fast foam rolling that you would do prior to competition to wake up the sensory or proprioception where you are in space and help with circulation.

Speaker A:

Okay.

Speaker A:

Deeper, slow rolling with directional changes is for hydration.

Speaker A:

Okay, that's.

Speaker A:

People are familiar with foam rolling.

Speaker A:

And I can answer more questions about that if you want to, but types of movement.

Speaker A:

So let's say I want to increase the elastic capability of my fascia.

Speaker A:

Something you could do is light hopping.

Speaker A:

People will say, but I'm using my muscle.

Speaker A:

I'm still using my muscle.

Speaker A:

Yes, you are using your muscle.

Speaker A:

Okay.

Speaker A:

But the idea is to get in tune with what this collagenous tissue can do for this spring like motion.

Speaker A:

So there's certain categories of movement, whether it's sensory refinement, slowing movement down this spring like quality, with different exercises you can do, there's slow directional changes.

Speaker A:

So, for example, instead of just standing in a calf stretch like we do for 30 to 40 seconds, there's other techniques to embellish this tissue, whether it's holding at the end range of motion and doing slight pulsing movements.

Speaker A:

There's different kind of receptors in the fascia.

Speaker A:

So you want to do movements that stimulate all these kinds of receptors.

Speaker A:

When you're stretching, for example, instead of just one muscle, we want to stretch in long muscle chains.

Speaker A:

We want to perform fluid movements that are elegant.

Speaker A:

Now, you're wondering, where can I get all this information?

Speaker A:

Hopefully, by the end of August, I will have my fascial program done and ready for you to take a look at, because, again, you can't separate the tissue.

Speaker A:

But I just finished doing a ten week mentorship with some of the researchers, and there's different categories of movement that embellish and accentuate how this, this tissue can operate optimally.

Speaker A:

So while phone rolling and static stretching and warming up is good, there are some other categories of movement that can be performed, and they don't take a lot of time.

Speaker A:

That's the beauty of it.

Juliet Hockman:

So it sounds to me, like you said, you can't separate muscle from the fascia.

Juliet Hockman:

You can't separate fascia from the muscle, but you can accentuate the benefits to the fascia by doing a different kind of movement, different kind of activity that is going to accentuate the benefits to the fascia, even though you're still using the muscle.

Juliet Hockman:

And I heard you mention hopping, and I've heard a couple of different times, people advocating things like jump rope, that jumping rope is a really good activity that not only benefits the muscles, but also is one of these activities that, from listening to you, is, I'm guessing, could be one of those things that could benefit tendons and ligaments and also some of these fascial components.

Juliet Hockman:

Be an accurate assessment?

Speaker A:

Absolutely.

Speaker A:

It's just, the thing is, it's increasing load over time.

Speaker A:

So I just, this is so perfect timing.

Speaker A:

I finished this mentorship because we were talking about hopping or jumping rope.

Speaker A:

When you get to a point where you start feeling your calf muscle, stop, because now you're using muscle and not the recoil property of the fascia.

Speaker A:

So that means don't jump rope for half an hour, do it for literally 30 seconds or a minute, and work your way up to this place where you can be light and springy.

Speaker A:

I once did this on a treadmill, training for a marathon where I got my brain into my Achilles tendon and my calf muscle, and I said, stop contracting, be light and springy.

Speaker A:

And the only way that you can practice that is to literally do that thing.

Speaker A:

So it's something that takes practice, but the muscle, when walking, like for walking, running a little bit, but walking especially, you're using more of the elastic properties of the fascia, not so much the muscle contraction.

Speaker A:

So this is an idea you can use?

Juliet Hockman:

Yeah, no, I got you.

Juliet Hockman:

And then what about for recovery?

Juliet Hockman:

You mentioned that it's important to help the fascia.

Juliet Hockman:

Just the way we do with muscles.

Juliet Hockman:

A massage, for example, is, I'm assuming, one of those things that you can do.

Juliet Hockman:

What are things that you could do to accentuate recovery of the fascia after.

Speaker A:

A hard effort, hands on therapy will always be number one, especially from somebody who understands the delicate layers of the superficial fascia and deep fascia.

Speaker A:

A lot of times, people will say, I'm so sore.

Speaker A:

Dig in.

Speaker A:

Oh, the research is showing, no, don't dig in.

Speaker A:

Hands again.

Speaker A:

Hands on therapy, whether it's massage or other.

Speaker A:

I will also be an advocate for acupuncture, because one of the main researchers who works at the Harvard Alternative Medical School there, she's not only MD, but she's an acupuncturist.

Speaker A:

And she did some fabulous research showing that when the acupuncture needle is in, the fascia jumps and grabs onto the needle.

Speaker A:

Pretty cool.

Speaker A:

So that is this circulatory effect.

Speaker A:

If you do not have access to that, then the next best thing would be tools like a foam roller.

Speaker A:

If you're not able to get on the ground, a lot of times you can use, I use a spiky massage ball against the wall with some of my clients, or they're on a table and they have their leg up on a table using the ball.

Speaker A:

But for the sake of discussion here, we'll talk about the foam roller.

Speaker A:

And that's when I mentioned earlier, was the.

Speaker A:

This deeper, slow phone rolling.

Speaker A:

It's, I'm going to say my very famous line, everyone knows, or you'll know now, annoyingly slow.

Speaker A:

So if you're foam rolling the calf, let's just take that for an example.

Speaker A:

From the ankle towards the knee, not under the knee, but just the belly of the calf.

Speaker A:

What you're trying to do is go one direction, especially there, because there's one way valves, and we just want to go one way.

Speaker A:

And you're literally going super slow rolling left to right, and that is it.

Speaker A:

You're going to do that only one time and leave maybe two to three days in between that body part.

Speaker A:

Because what we're finding is that type of pressure is very similar to hands on therapy.

Speaker A:

And we found in the lab that there's collagen degradation, meaning it's going away.

Speaker A:

The collagen is being degraded in the body, and in that area, it needs a chance to build that up back up.

Speaker A:

So that would be a very direct way to recover in terms of direct input through pressure.

Speaker A:

Other recovery would be, as you probably always tell your clients as well, drinking plenty of good, clean water, actual rest.

Speaker A:

Or it could be, if you are really sore because you overloaded it, which I can talk about.

Speaker A:

Eccentric training and what that does to fascia.

Speaker A:

Don't sit all day long.

Speaker A:

Try to just move.

Speaker A:

My first marathon was a dare.

Speaker A:

Okay.

Speaker A:

I trained one week.

Speaker A:

That's it.

Speaker A:

I did all 26 miles.

Speaker A:

I could only walk 1.1 mile an hour on the treadmill for five days, but I didn't sit down.

Speaker A:

That's what your fascia wants.

Speaker A:

Unless you are severely injured and the doctor says, sit, but generally speaking, do not sit.

Speaker A:

This is a huge thing for recovery.

Juliet Hockman:

You gave me a lot to think about there, and it all got jammed in my frontal lobe trying to decide how to respond.

Juliet Hockman:

So the foam rolling.

Juliet Hockman:

I think we all know that kind of discomfort from the foam roller, and you're giving us license to not do it every day, which I think we are all going to be very happy about.

Juliet Hockman:

So only to do it once every two to three days, because that discomfort we're feeling is genuine.

Juliet Hockman:

The foam roller is not the most comfortable thing to be doing, and there's a reason for that.

Juliet Hockman:

I'm getting the sense it's because we're actually causing some almost damage, if you will, to the fascia, which is necessary for rebuilding it to be stronger.

Juliet Hockman:

Is that an accurate kind of statement, actually?

Speaker A:

What sort of.

Speaker A:

If you're training too hard, the fascia is going to respond in a negative way, which means it's natural to overtrain or try something too soon in loading, let's just say.

Speaker A:

But the foam rolling, I'm glad you brought that up.

Speaker A:

The foam rolling shouldn't be painful.

Speaker A:

If it is, you got to either lighten up or get a different roller.

Speaker A:

Or if you only have a super hard roller, put a towel.

Speaker A:

This is what is going on.

Speaker A:

If you are in pain when you're rolling, what's going to happen is some of those receptors that deal with pain are going to get called on into action.

Speaker A:

We do not want to ask them to be in pain all the time.

Speaker A:

We want to suppress that nose deception.

Speaker A:

We need to suppress that.

Speaker A:

We don't want to knock on its door.

Speaker A:

So phone rolling.

Speaker A:

ted doing that with people in:

Speaker A:

It's not.

Speaker A:

It needs to be comfortable.

Speaker A:

Even the slower rolling.

Speaker A:

If you come upon an area that is particularly painful, you would pause and then maybe do a little shearing motion, like back and forth.

Speaker A:

I call it the cheese grater.

Speaker A:

But, yeah, I'm glad you brought that up.

Speaker A:

We do not want excessive, uncomfortable.

Juliet Hockman:

Yeah, the cheese grater doesn't sound any more comfortable than the foam roller.

Juliet Hockman:

I know what you mean, but, yeah, I don't know anybody who thinks the foam roller is particularly a comfortable implement.

Juliet Hockman:

But it's an interesting idea to do it in a way that makes it more comfortable.

Juliet Hockman:

And then what else can we do to try and maintain a healthy fascia?

Juliet Hockman:

You've mentioned some ways to strengthen it, to make it more robust, to help it recover.

Juliet Hockman:

You mentioned drinking adequate amounts of water.

Juliet Hockman:

Is there anything else that we could do to try and encourage a healthy fascia?

Juliet Hockman:

Because again, I really, this thought of how it works in conjunction with our muscles, and I know for myself I definitely can think of the tendon to the ligament, to the muscle, to the fascia within the muscle, as all one big unit.

Juliet Hockman:

We think that we're training our muscles when, of course, we're training that entire unit together all at once.

Juliet Hockman:

But when we're actually training for endurance and consuming oxygen and dealing with energy, that's truly the muscle cells.

Juliet Hockman:

But we need to really consider ways to make the fascia healthier.

Juliet Hockman:

So what are things that we could do just on a day to day basis besides just better nutrition and hydration?

Juliet Hockman:

Is there anything that we can be thinking about on a day to day basis to try and encourage just an overall improvement in our fascial health?

Speaker A:

Yes.

Speaker A:

First, think about it.

Speaker A:

Look at a book, look at some type of picture about it, and get it in your mind of what it really is.

Speaker A:

And then understand that it's thinking on your behalf 24/7 so every position you're in on a long airplane flight, you will get up, try to sit in the aisle.

Speaker A:

Okay.

Speaker A:

What happens is when we sit too long, the collagen fibers actually start to go.

Speaker A:

This person is in this position.

Speaker A:

We need to support it.

Speaker A:

That's why when you get up out of a chair, out of.

Speaker A:

If you've been in a meeting or a long movie or whatever, for 3 hours, you feel creaky, maybe.

Speaker A:

And so when you condition your fascia, you'll feel less creaky getting out of these long situations.

Speaker A:

So your job, besides doing all this other stuff I mentioned, is think about it.

Speaker A:

It is thinking on your behalf 24/7 its output is only as good as its input.

Speaker A:

So if you're carrying a backpack, if you're carrying a child, if you're pushing groceries, if you're filling a gas tank, if whatever it is, your fascia is thinking about this posture.

Speaker A:

Just also try to be more elegant in your everyday life.

Speaker A:

I know on social media I have a few posts of me dancing in the kitchen.

Speaker A:

Rather than clumping to the refrigerator and clumping over here, I put myself, let me print over to the refrigerator and then print sounds silly.

Speaker A:

I'm gonna be 55 in a few days, and I'm telling you, I feel 30 years younger.

Speaker A:

I'm not kidding.

Speaker A:

I feel springy in my body suit.

Speaker A:

All of these researchers are well into their sixties and some in their seventies, and they can do way more than I can.

Speaker A:

So it's about thinking, visualizing this springy bodysuit.

Speaker A:

Even if you don't think you're elegant in moving in everyday life, just think it and move that way.

Speaker A:

Whether it's reaching to turn on a light instead of going, ah, turn on the light.

Speaker A:

Reach slowly maybe, and turn on the light maybe just once a day.

Speaker A:

It's the thought.

Speaker A:

First, it's believing in yourself.

Speaker A:

Second, you can do this.

Speaker A:

And third, it's everything that you do all day long because it's always thinking.

Juliet Hockman:

So it's really being intentional with movement.

Juliet Hockman:

It's being intentional with movement, avoiding being static for long periods of time.

Juliet Hockman:

You mentioned try not to sit for too long.

Juliet Hockman:

All of that resonates with me, and all of that makes a lot of sense, especially as we get older.

Juliet Hockman:

I think we all feel that the longer we stay seated, that, like you said, the creakiness as we get up.

Juliet Hockman:

And I really like that idea of trying to be more elegant in our movements.

Juliet Hockman:

I know also as we get older, when sudden movements tend to have negative consequences much more frequently.

Juliet Hockman:

And I think if you can be intentional about your movements, you probably go a long way towards avoiding those kinds of adverse effects or adverse kinds of unintentional kinds of things.

Juliet Hockman:

Being intentional in thought and intentional and purpose probably goes a long way towards helping all of this and helping you be able to stay healthy and be able to continue to do the things that we love and keep moving.

Juliet Hockman:

And as you said, be youthful, both in body and mind.

Speaker A:

Yes, it's just try different types of movements.

Speaker A:

Don't.

Speaker A:

Like I said, the kitchen dancing thing everybody loved, or getting in the car, you're getting in it slowly, reaching for the door.

Speaker A:

It makes a difference.

Speaker A:

Take a dance class.

Speaker A:

That's what I tell all triathletes.

Speaker A:

Once in a while, move in all the directions and stay springy.

Juliet Hockman:

We hear a lot about yoga, and I'm curious on your opinion of yoga.

Juliet Hockman:

Is yoga a positive thing or potentially negative?

Juliet Hockman:

I personally, I'm agnostic.

Juliet Hockman:

I know a lot of people love yoga.

Juliet Hockman:

I have not.

Juliet Hockman:

I just don't.

Juliet Hockman:

My own time limitations have prevented me from being able to incorporate it.

Juliet Hockman:

But I have given a lot of thought to trying to get it involved, especially this office season that's going to come up in the fall.

Juliet Hockman:

I don't want to think about the fall.

Jeff Sankoff:

I'm enjoying the summer.

Juliet Hockman:

But anyways.

Juliet Hockman:

But anyways, what are your thoughts about yoga as a means of supporting fascial health?

Speaker A:

Yoga has been included very often in all of our research papers and textbooks.

Speaker A:

Now, in my interpretation of yoga is there's several kinds of yoga.

Speaker A:

Some is very fast paced, which is great because it's just moving you in different positions.

Speaker A:

You should do it at your pace and at your depth of range of motion.

Speaker A:

But if we're going to talk about what a lot of people think of slow melting yoga, it depends on the person.

Speaker A:

If we think about stretching or holding poses, we have to think about while there's a lot of research about yoga and where it actually comes from as a discipline, not just physically, but mentally, and some spiritually, and anytime you hold a pose or stretch, you're still inputting to the body.

Speaker A:

So if you're stretching an area that shouldn't be stretched, then what's happening is you're taking away that optimal push and pull.

Speaker A:

I forgot to mention that already, biotensegrity, it's this optimal push and pull in the body.

Speaker A:

So if you become too supple in one area, that might restrict how much strength you can build, either in that area or another area.

Speaker A:

So I think if you're getting into slow, melty stretches, go in with the idea that you're going to go into it conservatively.

Speaker A:

And for people that do it that are already really bendy, I would try to do those poses for more clearing the mental space and hold a stretch if we were going to categorize the load.

Speaker A:

I'm working on that right now with the research project.

Speaker A:

Is categorizing the load at a three or four on the stretch scale out of ten.

Speaker A:

So you're feeling it, but not really.

Speaker A:

The only way to really know what you should be stretching is to have a biomechanical assessment.

Speaker A:

That's something I do.

Speaker A:

So yoga, as far as being around other people and getting in different positions of the body, I think is great.

Juliet Hockman:

Just don't overdo it and don't do anything that causes discomfort.

Speaker A:

And if you're already bendy, be aware of that.

Speaker A:

Just understand you don't want to get extra bendy.

Speaker A:

The epitome of flexibility is not being able to do the splits or have seated with your legs wide and your whole chest can go to the floor.

Speaker A:

That's great.

Speaker A:

But that's not the epitome of, say, we all have to attain that to be great athletes.

Speaker A:

That's not true.

Juliet Hockman:

All right, I think that's a perfect place to close as opposed to being open.

Juliet Hockman:

As you mentioned, Michelle Bond is a kinesiologist who specializes in the research and assessment of connective tissue, specifically the fascia, and talks, or has her own proprietary movement assessment and corrective exercise system that she works with both athletes and non athletes.

Juliet Hockman:

And I am going to put links to where you could find Michelle and all of the things that she has done in this vein and you'll be able to find that in the show notes Michelle Bond thank you so much for joining me on the Tridar podcast today for this very interesting and I think enlightening conversation.

Speaker A:

Thank you so much.

Speaker A:

I really appreciate it.

Joe Wilson:

What's up everybody?

Joe Wilson:

My name is Joe Wilson and I'm a proud supporter of the Tri Dark podcast.

Joe Wilson:

The Tri Dark podcast is produced and edited by Jeff Sankoff, one of my good friends, along with his amazing interns, Cosette Rhodes and Nina Takashima.

Joe Wilson:

You can find the show notes for everything discussed on the show today, as well as the archives of previous episodes at www.trythpodcast.com.

Joe Wilson:

do you have any questions about any of the issues discussed on this episode or do you have a question for consideration to be answered on a future episode?

Joe Wilson:

Send Jeff an email at try docloud.com.

Joe Wilson:

if you are interested in coaching services, you should really reach out to jeff@tridoccoaching.com or lives fourcoaching.com where you can find a lot of information about Jeff and the services that he provides.

Joe Wilson:

You can also follow Jeff on the Tri Dark podcast Facebook page, Tridar coaching on Instagram, and the Tridark YouTube channel.

Joe Wilson:

And don't forget to join the Tridark podcast private Facebook group.

Joe Wilson:

Search for it and request to join today.

Joe Wilson:

If you enjoy this podcast, I hope you would consider leaving a rating interview as it helps the show as well as subscribe to the show whenever you download it.

Joe Wilson:

And of course, there's always the option of becoming a supporter@patreon.com.

Joe Wilson:

the music heard at the beginning and the end of the show is radio by empty hours and is used with permission.

Joe Wilson:

This song and many others like it can be found at www.reverbnation.com, where I hope that you will visit and give a small, independent fans a chance.

Joe Wilson:

The Tridark podcast will be back soon with another medical question and answer it in another interview with someone in the world of multisport.

Joe Wilson:

Until then, train hard, train healthy.

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About the Podcast

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The TriDoc Podcast, triathlon and health in one place
A fresh take on all things triathlon with a special focus on health and wellness topics. Train hard, train healthy.

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About your host

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Jeffrey Sankoff

Jeff Sankoff is an emergency physician, multiple Ironman finisher and the TriDoc. Jeff owns TriDoc Coaching and is a coach with LifeSport Coaching. Living in Denver with his wife and three children, Jeff continues to race triathlons while producing the TriDoc podcast.